clubpenguinfanonfandomcom-20200223-history
Talk:Demon Penguin
Can we delete this, seriously, its pointless, and it also breaks the COC and That's Death! It's also turning into an edit war. --HappyfaceWantsToTalk 21:39, 22 August 2009 (UTC) :No, I don't think it needs deletion. The article was a good idea and has potential. Besides, the vote is on and I think expoloding heads are legal. The Edit War is near the end. Also, an admin who is not in the war may end it by rewriting or preserving it. Since I'm involved, it would take someone else. Are you involved? --† कछुए मशरूम! Jesus Loves You and Died for You!! † :) :) DON'T YOU DARE QUIT BECAUSE OF WHAT I JUST TYPED!!!!!!!! † 22:19, 22 August 2009 (UTC) Nope. I take no sides in edit warz. --HappyfaceWantsToTalk 22:20, 22 August 2009 (UTC) Hey, how come this is allowed when Zero was deleted within 10 seconds?! -iPeng :I can't really answer that, IPeng, but I think it has something to do with AG refusing to back down... actually, I really don't know. --† कछुए मशरूम! Jesus Loves You and Died for You!! † :) :) DON'T YOU DARE QUIT BECAUSE OF WHAT I JUST TYPED!!!!!!!! † 17:06, September 11, 2009 (UTC) ::TS, you deleted it. -iPeng That was because Zero was an angel-demon combo oxymoron, I believe. This is a CLEAN parody of Demons, or at least their stereotype in the media. ' ' [[User:Explorer 767|'Explorer 767']] ([[User talk:Explorer 767|'The Nerd Quibbles On...']]) View this template 19:35, September 11, 2009 (UTC) I still we need more Demon Penguin articles. Zero could of been modified. -- ¤ ([[User:Ninjinian|'User page!']]) ([[User talk:Ninjinian|'The Cookie Master, bow!']]) 19:40, September 11, 2009 (UTC) ---- Nah, it's here because TS needed an excuse to explode heads and it's illgegal. His response: but they don't count! Their demons!--N⊘tAnEditor 19:08, September 19, 2009 (UTC) :There is an exception to every rule, and Demon Penguins, because they are demon parodies, happen to be the exception. Exact quote.--N⊘tAnEditor 19:11, September 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- ::I remember deleting Zero, though I believe that was because he, like Explorer said, was an angel and a demon, a Biblical parodox and a Christianity violation. ::Now, you have indeed quoted me, and I can't deny something I said. However, I regret nothing in what I have said because I feel I am correct in what I have said. There IS an exception for every rule, from grammar (the word weird) to law (grandfather clause). As for the demons, I've said this before and I'll say it again. Demons have no feelings. They are minions of Satan, the Bible sometimes calls them the "devil's angels". The Bible mentions several times that demons are nothing but completely evil. It implies that they are mindless slaves of Satan. They lack feelings, they lack any sense of good or righteousness, and they cower in fear at the face of good (or, specifically, Jesus). My religion, or at least by my and my family's view on demons, completely allow everything we do to them here. Besides, when I say "head explosion", how do you think a head would explode on a G or PG-rated site? An episode of SpongeBob SquarePant's had a guy's head explode. There was nothing afterwards; no blood, no guts, no nothing. In fact, there wasn't even a sound before and after. When I first heard the phrase "head explosion" online, I pictured it in a G-rated manner. ::I've searched for a video to describe it, and I finally found one that matches what I think of if a character's head explodes. It's clean, spotless even. You can view it by clicking this link. Now, tell me, is that dirty? Is that unholy? In the real world, it may be, but on this and in this case, I'd say okay. After a Demon Penguin's head explodes, the body turns to dust. ::In the real world, demons are heartless, souless, pure 100% evil wraiths of Satan. Jesus once cast them into pigs, though He usually just drove them out. Jesus' diciples also kicked demon butt. Why can't I get it through your head that it's okay to explode a demon's head? It's a demon parody, and their parodee is Satan's henchmen. ::If you feel pity or compassion for demons (which have neither), there's something wrong with your thought process, because Satan doesn't even recieve mercy from God Himself. Have you ever read Revelation? Take it for a read and you'll see what God thinks about Lucifer and his cronies. :::--† कछुए मशरूम! Jesus Loves You and Died for You!! † :) :) DON'T YOU DARE QUIT BECAUSE OF WHAT I JUST TYPED!!!!!!!! † 00:41, September 25, 2009 (UTC) AG TS... if they have no choice but to be bad, then it isn't their fault. Without free will, they must be automatons. If a robot kills somebody, it isn't the robot's fault. Therefore they must have free will to be baddies. ::So, no '100% evil'. Sorry. The whole point about the exeption thingy is that you simply decided that, although it did indeed break the rule (I know it isn't actually nasty. But I am gifted with an overactive imagination and can imaging it from the Demon Penguin's point of view. Not fun. Now, where was I? Oh, yes.) although it did indeed break the rule, this didn't count. Why? Because you said it didn't count. Now, I am afraid that, Webmaster though you may be, now matter how emminently greasy you are, you are not the COC incarnate. You cannot simply declare 'this is so!' in the face of the actual words. Sorry. I always understood that those demons were an anology for mental sickness. Why he cast the mental sickness into pigs is hard to guess, but I personally suspect that it was a form of muliple personality disorder and Jesus was unwilling to destroy the extra minds. So he put them into pigs. I have read Revelation. I have a copy of it here next to me as I type. I have read it right through and, frankly, I think that anyone who can interpert it literally is either insane or cheating. I'm sorry, but most biblical scholers agree that it's an anology for the persacution of early Christians by the Romans. I ask you, what does this mean: And betwen the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth; That's Revelation, Chapter Five, Verse Six. ::Now, I'm not trying to destroy your convictions about Revalation, although I also wonder how it could be about the end of the world if the world doesn't actually end in it (seriously.) I am trying, by a roundabout route, to get you to actually read it again. Mabye rethink it a bit. Finally, since when do we only feel compassion for the good guys? Love you enemy, TS. Satan may not be pardoned, but he's Evil Incarnate. Hard to pardon. The demons, on the other hand, are a different matter. I'm a little fuzzy on what demons are, but if they're fallen angels then presumably they could be risen demons sometime in the future? Hmm? OK, now for the annoying bit. It doesn't matter here what demons are. This is a parody of charicatured demons, bright red men with horns who live underground an poke sinners with pitchforks. OK? Got it? So I'm afraid your reasoning is not only flawed but irrelevent. And, as the COC clearly states, I'm the author of this article and I'm telling you that your changes are OC. OK? Before you go off in a huff, I already came up with a deal between us. If you agree with it, I will honour it. If not, I will metaforicaly steamroller your changes. IT can be found here. For your benifit, however, I will reproduce it here: '' #Diss is restored. OK? But without the whole immortal prisoners thing. Frankly, it does seem rather appropriate to have evil guarding evil, thus stopping either of them attacking us. Sice your only objection is the prisoners, that should be OK. #No exploding heads. Sorry, but no. However, anything that exploded their heads can make them crumple to dust. Actually, if you still want to torture the Demon Penguins, then think about the fact that they get time to realise their crumbling to dust befor they do. Also, they can't even go to heaven (as if they could, but who knows) because they don't properly die, they stay trapped as dust forever (or until another Demon Penguin restores them with it's trident, dut that can only happen for a brief period of time (until some of the dust gets blown away) and after that they get all eternity to contemplate just how wrong they were. I hope that satisfies you? #The image. You still seem to dislike my image of the Demon Penguins, so on that front I surrender. However, can I create a new picture, so that the objections between both our images get resolved. B oth images continue to exist, both are authorised as what Demon Penguins really look like, but niether gets used in the article? #The latin name. Now, here I can't offer a compromise, but I hope that you only changed that by accident. So, is this a deal? Is it? Please respond soon with acceptance or at least requests for changes.'' Fair enough? Yours theologically, N⊘tAnEditor N⊘tAnEditor 09:22, September 25, 2009 (UTC) ---- Good Job NAE. Although the exploding heads thig is pretty funny, but I don't think therre will be an impact if we leave it there or not. But please don't change the image. I already made a character (My chraracter) that has that figure. I like the image. Citcxirtcem 18:17, September 25, 2009 (UTC) Commentary by Explorer In response to NAE's arguments... Actually, I agree with him on the free will debate. TS, this article is a parody of demon caricatures in popular culture, not the actual, all-evil demons that are with Satan. However, I still think NAE's pretty weak with the heads exploding. TS explicitly said that the heads exploding were perfectly G-rated as long as there were no blood, guts, or gore. He DIDN'T say in this PARTICULAR discussion that it is okay to have Demon Penguins' heads explode because they are bad. NAE is arguing against the latter instead of what TS actually said. As for the truce, I'm leaving that up to TS and NAE. Hasta la vista, Benny! ' ' [[User:Explorer 767|'Explorer 767']] ([[User talk:Explorer 767|'The Nerd Quibbles On...']]) View this template 19:08, September 25, 2009 (UTC) I know. The heads would be fine, but I tok the 'crumble to dust' from a book and it's useful for plot twists in ways exploding heads are not. Their just illegal, but I would overlook that if it weren't for the fact that it simply disturbs me. I have an overactive imagination. HOWEVER, I promise to work in a demonic exploding head somwhere in the story I'm working on.--N⊘tAnEditor 19:13, September 25, 2009 (UTC) ---- Corrections. And a step-by-step analysis of NAE's arguments, and rebuttals. Okay. For NAE's argument against heads exploding... The Demon Penguins are VILLAINS. We're NOT supposed to feel compassion for them, that's the rule in literature. I don't care what their parodee is, the rules are this: Antagonists don't get no empathy. ::Face LITERATURE'S COC. As for the demon-casting interpretation and the Revelation clauses, NAE's argument is insignificant and insufficient due to the God is Darth Vader fallacy. Your interpretation may be wrong, as may be TS's interpretation, and those biblical scholars' interpretations. God is the only one who is exempt from the God is Darth Vader fallacy. And for the final clauses.... WOULDN'T LITERATURE BE GREAT IF THE PROTAGONISTS WERE NICE TO THE ANTAGONISTS. :Literature's COC: "No more Mr. Nice Guy, you villain." Rant Stopper: Don't even THINK about saying that the above argument is irrelevant due to the fact that demons are real-world and I was talking about literature. Your argument is trying to circumvent the fact that demon penguins ARE part of fiction, which deals out no compassion to the villains. Now, since Demon Penguins are not parodies of the real demons, any "good demon penguins" out there should GET their share of compassion in the end, and of course, it would be bad for their heads to explode because they're good. However, that doesn't mean head exploding should be banned for all demon penguins. Head exploding for demon penguins is a plot device, just like death. Both add drama to a story. As long as there's no gore and the story is kept at a reasonable level of drama and tragedy, both death and head exploding are okay by the COC. Hasta la vista, Keith! ' ' [[User:Explorer 767|'Explorer 767']] ([[User talk:Explorer 767|'The Nerd Quibbles On...']]) View this template 19:23, September 25, 2009 (UTC) ---- Well, IDK what kind of book you read, but I prefer villains who aren't just brainless idiots. Like James Bond, if those guys are so smart WHY DON'T THEY JUST SHOOT HIM?! In my opinion, villains who are mindless/two dimensional suck, and villains who know their evil and just don't care are usually unrealistic. All good villains are misguided. In my opinion. N⊘tAnEditor 19:34, September 25, 2009 (UTC) PS: 'Love your enemies'? ... That's the biblical meaning of demon. Demon just means malicious spirit in normal words. Citcxirtcem 02:36, September 25, 2009 (UTC) Reply First, let's get something straight. When Jesus cast the demons into the pigs, He wasn't casting out a mental illness. Technically, Autism is a mental illness. Am I possessed? NO! There are numerous references of possessed folks in Scripture, and the symptoms are insane. Demonic possession induces foaming at the mouth, clawing oneself, living like a wild animal, screaming, utter disobediance (we're talking beating up you parents), wailing, bleeding, and, in the case of a possessed girl following some prophets, stalking. That was what Jesus cast out of people. One guy was possessed by a demon named Leigon (and there were many of him in that one guy). Demons ARE mindless henchmen of Satan. They'll do anything Lucifer tells them. The Devil says jump, demons say "how high?". So, let's begin on that: :A long time ago, Satan was once an angel, an angel named Lucifer. He was a powerful angel, a high rank among God's messengers. However, Lucifer wanted to BE God, to overpower Him and BE God. Thus, Lucifer and a bunch of conspiring angels tried to coup God, but He kicked Lucifer's butt. Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, and his cronies were banishe dwith him. Lucifer became what we now call Satan, or the devil, eternally bent on destroying God and tempting the masses with his evil and unholy junk. :The cronies who followed Satan/Lucifer in trying to coup God were also banished from Heaven. These are the so-called pop-culture "fallen angels", the Demons. The Bible sometimes refers to them as "the Devil's angels". Now, like Explorer said, the only one who can't be subject to the GIDV fallacy is God Himself, and the Scripture. If the Bible says it, the Bible says it. No one can argue or interpret, for instance, whether Jesus was born to Virgin Mary or to someone else. The Bible says He was born to Virgin Mary, and we can't argue with that because the Bible is infallible and right, from God Himself. Everything else can be victims of the GIDV fallacy. Here's another one. "Without free will, they must be automatons. If a robot kills somebody, it isn't the robot's fault. Therefore they must have free will to be baddies." :"So, no '100% evil'. Sorry." Well, the technically ARE Automatons. They were created by Malcur as evil clones who serve evil. Demons can't have free will because they are DEMONS and ALL DEMONS ARE EVIL. "If there are fallen angels, are there risen demons?" No! Satan did an unforgivable deed, even in the eyes of the same God who forgives serial killers, those who crucified His Son, and even cannibals. That's saying something if Satan is unforgivable. Demons amde the choice to follow Lucifer, and now, they follow Lucifer. I can't change my theological grounds on demons. However, I'm reviewing your compomise suggestions. RE: Your Suggestions #No, we're not restoring Diss. It's just too much like Hell, no matter how much you tweak it. Besides, why would evil gaurd evil? If they are both evil then they are probably on the same side. Jesus once asked how a kingdom could stand if its own members fought each other, and how it would be pointless for Demons to cast out Demons, because they are on the same team, Lucifer's. #You didn't read the entire part on the heads. When a demon penguin's head explodes, the body then crumbles to dust. So, in a sense, a demon penguin's head exploding is just a more powerful version of crumbling to normal dust. AFTER A DEMON PENGUIN'S HEAD EXPLODES AND THE BODY TURNS TO DUST, THE DUST CAN BE RESTORED LIKE A NORMAL DEMON PENGUIN, HEAD ATTACHED. #Well, the image is older than your presence on this Wiki. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7rHh4Ktg5g#t=06m04s The image made its appearence in my American Pie video, which was released on July 31, 2007. That was the first instance of "demon penguins" to ever appear, so I techncally have the OOC rights on the image only. To make a different image would be OOC OF MY VERSION, and considering your cry OOC so much, I think you should respect that.] #The Latin name translates to "evil devil devil". I felt like saying devil twice without a reason. Have you ever done something with no defined reason? HOWEVER, the Latin word "luciferi" may be a bit much, so I will change that. Here's What I Will Give In *Just because Demon Penguins are 100% evil does NOT mean they are total idiots. For gravy's sakes, they have missile launchers and nine floors of caves under UnitedTerra! You can make them as dumb or as intelligent as you please. I for one feel that, despite being eternally evil, they are still smart. *You CAN make articles about Demon Penguins. *You CAN make Demon-penguin operated places, but NOT Diss. Perhaps a trident factory or something? *You CAN make stories with Demon Penguins (I already did in the TSP article). --† कछुए मशरूम! Jesus Loves You and Died for You!! † :) :) DON'T YOU DARE QUIT BECAUSE OF WHAT I JUST TYPED!!!!!!!! † 18:50, September 26, 2009 (UTC) You call that a reply? First, let's get something straight. I think Jesus was healing a metally ill person. The medical understanding at the time was that anyone mentally ill (probably including autistic people) was possesed by a demon. But I do concede that it could have been a demon. However, I can't help wondering if demons do posess people. I mean, are they all on holidays now or what? But, if they DO posess people, shouldn't angels be able to do that too? Hmm ... I should work that into a short story sometime. Not one here, obviously, but still. I'm sure it says there's demons possesing people, but the whole point of scripture is you read between the lines. I's sybolic. Some things there happened, others didn't. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. The point is what you learn from the event, not the event itself. HOWEVER, I would still be interested in where you got that list of 'symptoms'. If it's biblical, could you give me the book/chapter/verse? Now, like Explorer said, the only one who can't be subject to the GIDV fallacy is God Himself. If the Bible says it, the Bible says it? But which Bible?! There are tons of Bibles. Every denomonation has their own slightly different list of which books are 'in' and which are 'out'. Most of the Bible is from God Himself. In fact, I personally think more than all the bible is from God Himself. We probably leave out some of it. And besides, what about translations? Everyone can be victim of the GIDV fallacy. Exept God. Here's another one. "Well, the technically ARE Automatons. They were created by Malcur as evil clones who serve evil. Demons can't have free will because they are DEMONS and ALL DEMONS ARE EVIL." Now, there is so much nonsense there I have to split it up into parts: #"Well, the technically ARE Automatons ... as evil clones who serve evil." Clones are not automatons. Robot's are automatons, and even then only some. Clockwork mice are automatons. Living, breathing creatures who just happen to have been born as clones are NOT. Ever heard of Dolly the Sheep? She was a clone. Was she a robot? NO! She was a sheep. #"They were created by Malcur ... "They were not created by Malcur. Don't be silly. They were created by some mad scientist. Remember? Someone had made the experiment interfered with be Malcur, but I erased that. THey don't work for Malcur. They don't work for anybody exept other demon penguins. #"Demons can't have free will because they are DEMONS..." Hwen are you going to get this through your head? They. Are. Not. Demons. OK? Not everyone thinks what Satan did was unforgivable. Somehow, though, I'm not surprised you do. I myself think he does not need forgiving, as God would know that Satan, as evil incarnate, cannot repent. He will have to spend an eternity in Hell, metephorically screaming at the injustice of it all. A being like that is, in my personal opinion, to be pitied. BUT, whether or not I'm right there, (it's probably about fifty-fifty,) it doesn't affect demons. In order to have Fallen, they need free will. Therfor, at somepoint they can theoretically Rise. I suspect that the God of infinite mercy and love will probably get them to do so someday. Probably. However, I actually used the phrase 'risen demon' to make the point that demons are, essentially, just angels. Misguided angels, mabye even evil angels, but still angels. I'd advise you to think about that. Indeed, since Heaven and Hell are outside time, any angel (including Gabrael) could concievably have Fallen (or perhaps Risen) at some point. Dwell on that for a while. You may not actually change your theological grounds on demons, it's your own choice. I can only hope you will be persuaded by my arguments and that, of course, I'm actually right. However, I don't actuall need you to agree with me on that. Re: RE: Your Suggestions #I don't think ti's very hellish, but we could alter it. And, about the quote, I can only say one thing: EXACTLY! #Really? I thought they vanished in a flash of light. Fair enough, I guess the heads ARE legal then. #Umm ... no. I'm sure your image does predate mine, but that doesn't give you any control over mine. Someone else (I forget who) drew Vampenguins, but that didn't stp me saying that vampenguins don't have wings and changing it. #Just leave it as mine. I already thought up the latin name, but had to translate it and returned to find you'd made up your own. Seriously, it isn't actually improtant but I really prefer my one. Here's What You Have Given In On *Well duh. *Well Duh *I think I will make a trident factory (I mean a pitchork factory) but I'm absolutely determined to have Diss, even in an altered form. *Well duh. --N⊘tAnEditor 22:03, September 26, 2009 (UTC) Um ... are we agreed then?--N⊘tAnEditor 18:09, October 1, 2009 (UTC) Oh well. Silence gives assent, I suppose...--N⊘tAnEditor 18:14, October 6, 2009 (UTC) Stop! 't see the controversy. The "Demon Penguin" are not supernatural in any way and are called Demons because it sounds cool, and they look like steyrotypical demons. Any why are you talking about Christianity? Hindus and other religions/mythologies had demons too. Christianity just took that concept and put in their book. Citcxirtcem 19:06, September 26, 2009 (UTC) ALthough I personally believe that other religions' demons are distortions of real demons, I take your point. However, I will continue to use Christian theology on the basis that this whole problem is TS (who is a Christian) deciding that these 'demon penguins' are the Christian demons. Satan's fallen angels. So, since I'm only ripping his arguments apart, other religions are irrelevant here. Fair enough?--N⊘tAnEditor 21:09, September 26, 2009 (UTC) Not really. I don't see any theology in this. I mean, the appearance isn't right. I'm pretty sure christian demons don't have horns, are red or carry tridents (Christians decided to demonize other gods/creatures form other religions; Satyrs (horns), Neptune (the trident) and Odin (he has red hair)). They look kinda like a Japanese oni... Citcxirtcem 22:07, September 26, 2009 (UTC) Well, it's a actually not a trident, it's a stylised pitchfork, and I seriously doubt the red hair is relevant. However, you are correct in saying these are not Christian demons. These are parodised (is that the right word) demon steriotypes. No-one actually believes in little red men with horns and pitchforks. That's the point. TS is just being silly and insisting that they're Christian demons. Most annoying.--N⊘tAnEditor 09:24, September 27, 2009 (UTC) Technically, theology would be irrelevant and Mex's arguments would have no meaning whatsoever, as religion is controversial and people like Mex are not always correct in such topics. I do believe that TS is incorrect in the fact that Demon Penguins are parodies of Christian demons, though I believe that that is no reason to disclude head explosions. ' ' [[User:Explorer 767|'Explorer 767']] ([[User talk:Explorer 767|'The Nerd Quibbles On...']]) View this template 19:10, October 1, 2009 (UTC) Of course theology is irrelevant. I ony used it to show that even if he was correct, I would still be right.--N⊘tAnEditor 18:12, October 6, 2009 (UTC) -_- Can't we just get this straight? WHAT'S WRONG WITH HEAD EXPLOSION? Demon Penguins are in NO RELATION to the Bible OR Satan. There are many stories about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), which include the Satan. Ever heard of how you got a bellybutton? So just stop this. :Well, Satan wasn't a demon in Islam, he was a djinn, as with the other fallen angels... Citcxirtcem 19:06, September 27, 2009 (UTC) -- ¤ ([[User:Ninjinian|'User page!']]) ([[User talk:Ninjinian|'The Cookie Master, bow!']]) 09:34, September 27, 2009 (UTC) In Other News... I have some pictures of Demon for the covers of The Demonata series by Darren Shan. Could anyone try and make them look more penguin? WARNING: YOU MIGHT FIND THEM SCARY!! * First demon. There's another version of this with another cover ** Which is here. * For others that look like Demons or other creatures you can transform go here! * What they're flippers can turn into it. Not hands, but into that sort of colour. ** OHHH LOOK ONE OF THEIR WEAPONS! * Scary right? Yeah, these are all scary. Dare I give more links to more? . . . . I do!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! * LOOOOOOL LOOK! It's Maledict! * AHHHH SOMEBODY HELP THIS POOOOOORRRR GUYYY!!!! My work here is done.... -- ¤ ([[User:Ninjinian|'User page!']]) ([[User talk:Ninjinian|'The Cookie Master, bow!']]) 10:26, September 27, 2009 (UTC) What? I think you've misread something. It's TS who says that Demon Penguins are parodies of (Christian) demons. HE wants their heads to explode. I'', who ''invented demon penguins, say they are parodies of the idea that demons are little hronred men with pitchforks. I want them to crumble to dust. On that score, we have decided to have them crumble to dust, EXCEPT when something really ... powerful ... destroys them, in which case their heads explode AND the rest of them crumbles to dust. Our arguments lie elsewhere ... mainly the fact he's deleted an underworld location and changed the latin name.--N⊘tAnEditor 13:36, September 27, 2009 (UTC) Hmmm... should we restore diss? And I guess we should only have their head explode in some circumstances. Citcxirtcem 19:06, September 27, 2009 (UTC) I agree with the exploding heads, but I'll leave Diss up to you and TS. ' ' [[User:Explorer 767|'Explorer 767']] ([[User talk:Explorer 767|'The Nerd Quibbles On...']]) View this template 19:10, October 1, 2009 (UTC) Like I said, I misunderstood about the heads. We have agreed that their heads will explode if a very powerful one is destroyed it's head exxplodes, otherwise they just crumble to dust. As for Diss, I honestly don't get why it isn't restored yet. I thought it was fine, but I've agreed to fix anything he has an isue with. He simply isn't responding. Yours, N⊘tAnEditor 16:35, October 2, 2009 (UTC)